關於 death march project ，我們在網路上蒐集到這些相關的討論、資訊與評價

(English below)

#太陽花學運 邁入7週年之際，鬼島之音希望能盡一份力，在社群上再次推，《 太陽・不遠 Sunflower Occupation 》紀錄片，重溫十個導演串起的九個主題。整部片子搭配雙語字幕，非常適合海外人士觀賞。紀錄片探討的是，在長達 24 天的占領國會運動中，青年如何被改變？ 24 天後他們又改變了什麼？完整影片：https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dLs3tDb1WiI
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我們在 #紀念太陽花7週年 同時，也希望能了解當時的學運代表及眾多參與者在學運經過 2,500 多天後的改變及看法。 #GIM318
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🌻 #林飛帆 是太陽花學運主要學生領袖之一，現任 民進黨副秘書長，他的身影多次出現在紀錄片《太陽‧不遠》裡。
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🌻 NGO 界的生力軍 #潘儀，參與過的議題領域包括實驗教育、#廢死、#LGBTQ、 #時代力量等等。現在負責 #國際人權聯盟 的東亞區事務。她出現在《太陽 ‧ 不遠》的第七部紀錄短片：#李家驊 導演的《看不見太陽的那幾天》
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🌻 #陳為廷 出現在《太陽‧不遠》的第一部紀錄短片：#傅榆 導演的《不小心變成總指揮》。他在 2014 年成為太陽花學運的代表人物之一。目前正在美國塔夫茨大學的弗萊徹法律與外交關係學院，就讀外交政策和國際經濟法。
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🌻 #謝昇佑 老師所參與的社會運動從2010年的 #野草莓 一路到了2014的 #三一八運動。身兼創業家的他，現在在新創公司「 好食機 」為小型食農生產者進行輔導和培力工作。謝昇佑出現於《太陽 ‧ 不遠》的第八部紀錄短片：#李惠仁 導演的《烈焰下的崩解與重生》
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🌻 #邱琦欣 雖然未在《太陽 ‧ 不遠》裡頭現身，但他也全程參與318的陳抗之中，如今成為英語網路上最積極為台灣左派政治發聲的人員之一。
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最後，大家可以向身邊講英文的朋友介紹「#破曉計畫」：一個收納了關於三一八運動各種資訊的網路百科，被 g0v.tw 台灣零時政府 譽為：「臺灣太陽花運動最全面的資料庫」

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🌻 Sunflower Movement - 7 Years Later 🌻

To mark this pivotal event in Taiwan’s recent history, we looked up some of the student activists from 2014.

On March 18, 2014, student activists occupied Taiwan’s parliament demanding the withdrawal of a trade pact with China. For the next 24 days, 400 protesters camped inside while 10,000 more surrounded the area. Among them were documentary filmmakers. The result was “Sunflower Occupation" - a 120min documentary featuring 9 activists + their days inside. The film crowdfunded $2.5M NTD in just four days. It was released by October 2014, in just 6 months.

Here’s the full film, with English subtitles! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dLs3tDb1WiI

“Sunflower Occupation” was produced by Taipei Documentary Filmmakers’ Union. It screened at multiple film festivals in Taiwan and Hong Kong in 2014 and 2015. Today, we looked up some of the activists featured.

🌻 Fei-fan LIN emerged as a central figure of the Sunflower Movement. He appears throughout our recommended film, “Sunflower Occupation.” He is currently Deputy Secretary General of the Democratic Progressive Party.

🌻 Yi PAN is a new-gen force in Taiwan’s NGO scene. She’s worked on education, anti-death penalty, LGBTQ, New Power Taiwan, and more. She’s currently East Asia officer at the International Federation for Human Rights. She’s featured in the 7th segment of “Sunflower Occupation.”

🌻 Wei-ting CHEN appears in the 1st segment, titled “A Commander Made by Accident.” CHEN became one of faces of the Sunflower Movement in 2014. He’s currently pursuing a degree in foreign policy and international economic law at the The Fletcher School at Tufts University

🌻 Sheng-Yu HSIEH is an activist and social impact entrepreneur. He was also at the 2010 Wild Strawberry Movement and founded Howsfood to coach, empower, and boost small-scale farmers in rural Taiwan. Meet him in segment 8 of the documentary.

🌻 Brian HIOE does not appear in the 2014 documentary, but he was present and on-site from the very first day of the movement. He is now a prominent voice of Taiwan’s pro-democracy advocacy in the English language.

To round up our tribute to this pivotal event in contemporary Taiwan history, we recommend the Daybreak Project, an English-language archive and encyclopedia, which open-source movement g0v calls “The Most Complete Archive of Taiwan’s Sunflower Movement.” It is hosted by HIOE’s New Bloom Magazine.
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#318學運 #反黑箱 #太陽不遠 #黑箱作業 #國家機器 #世代正義 #sunflowermovement #taiwanconsensus #學生運動 #馬英九 #學生抗爭 #sunfloweroccupation

TCM Treatments of COVID-19

Written in Chinese by Dr. Andy Lee, March 7, 2020 (http://andylee.pro/wp/?p=7660)

Translated to English by Dr. James Yeh, March 13, 2020

I published an essay “From SARS to Novel Coronavirus” in Chinese on January 21, 2020 (http://andylee.pro/wp/?p=7169). At that time, I tried to discuss possible Traditional Chinese Medicine (TCM) treatments of Novel Coronavirus based on my clinical experience of treating many severe cases of pneumonia caused by various influenza and other diseases. Since then, I have directly and indirectly participated in treating patients of Novel Coronavirus successfully, had discussions with many doctors fighting the epidemic at the front line and many researchers conducting related researches, and read many reports on this subject. Although the “Novel Coronavirus Pneumonia” has been renamed to “COVID-19” (coronavirus disease 2019) and the name of the virus has officially named from “2019-nCoV” to “SARS-CoV-2”, I now firmly believe that my original judgment, views, and interpretations are correct. For the sake of easiness for people to read and share, in this essay, I am reorganizing my previous discussions and including some explanations on certain confusions as well.

First, there are numerous provinces and cities in China using TCM to fight the “COVID-19” (I will use the term “Coronavirus” from now on.) No matter whether the treatments were primarily using TCM or the combination of TCM and the methods of Western medicine, there have been a significant amount of positive outcomes. On the other hand, the views of how to use TCM to treat and the use of corresponding herbal formulas vary quite a bit. Even when TCM remedies were effective, why did some patients fully recover and were discharged from the hospitals but other patients still could not get the virus-free “negative confirmation” from virus DNA tests?

Many TCM doctors participating in the treatments and discussions often look at the Coronavirus issue from a single “Point” or the condition of the patient at that specific moment. Some interpreted the disease as “Dampness” (濕), “Dryness” (燥), “Cold” (寒), or “Heat” (熱). (Translator’s note: These interpretations are often the opposite ends of the spectra, like Dampness is opposite to Dryness; and Cold is opposite to Heat.) From the clinical practice point of view, those treatments based on such conflicting interpretations all had positive effects to some degrees. Then, which interpretation is the “correct one”? In fact, those simple interpretations all have some merits but don’t fully cover the subject in hand. Although TCM is based on “Dialectical Treatment” (辯證論治), i.e. treatment is derived from “observation and diagnosis” of patients’ complex symptoms, the most important thing is that disease shouldn’t be viewed as an isolated problem at a specific time, but the whole development of symptoms along a timeline. Not only we need to observe and diagnose the current ailment but also we have to understand the development history of the disease and to project how the disease will develop in the future. For a single patient, we might be able to focus on the clinical results of this patient. But for epidemics, we have to look at a bigger picture and take into account how this Coronavirus develops health issues inside the human body from TCM’s perspective. And, in clinical treatments, we also need to consider many variants caused by each patient’s preconditions and one’s strength to fight off the disease.

From my experience of curing many patients who were inflicted with flu-induced pneumonia and complications, and the recent participation in treating and curing Coronavirus patients, it is proper to summarize that no matter whether the virus is Coronavirus, bird flu, swine flu, or the “common” flu, we found that the bodily deterioration caused by the virus, in general, follows the description from the TCM theory first covered in the ancient literature “Treatise on Cold Damage on Miscellaneous Disease ” (傷寒雜病論). However, the progressions of the disease from such special viruses are much faster, more severe, and/or more persistent than that of the common flu. Patients’ own original “health” condition also complicates the progression. (Translator’s note: For example, the infliction rate of young children is much smaller than that of adults for Coronavirus.)

As I explained before, the TCM theory discussed that for the common flu or “catching a cold”, the disease starts with “Exterior Deficiency or Weakness” (表虛). That is, the “exterior” of the body is invaded by the “External Pathogen” (外邪), like virus, and has adverse reactions. (Translator’s note: Here the exterior doesn’t mean just the outside surface of the body like the skin, but all the surfaces topologically exposed to the outside like lining of throat, nose, and bronchus of the body.) This is the first stage of the whole episode and often can be effectively treated with the herbal prescriptions such as “Gui Zhi Tang” (桂枝湯). If the patient is not properly treated, the body fluids within the surface and muscles could not function properly. It will cause the transition to the next stage “Exterior Excess” (表實). (Translator’s note: The word Excess has various meanings: excessive reactions all the way to neoplasm, excessive wasteful things, etc.) Viral infection at this stage is matched to one of the several syndromes named with the corresponding herbal remedies such as “Ge Geng Tang” (葛根湯), “Ma Huang Tang” (麻黃湯證), and others. The TCM theory calls this stage “Exterior Coldness” (表寒). In history, many TCM doctors considered this stage as the body being hurt by outside coldness (傷於寒) or in plain words “Catching Cold”. However, that is a misunderstanding. While outside coldness is one of the causes leading to the stage “Exterior Coldness”, it is not the only cause. When the body fluids could not function properly, the normal body fluids which had proper fluidity to circulate and to fulfill vital functions (活水) became a pot of “Dead Water” (死水), i.e. wasteful water which can’t fulfill vital functions. In other words, the ancient literature “Treatise on Cold Damage on Miscellaneous Disease” (傷寒雜病論) is much beyond the simple interpretation of how to treat the ailment caused by “cold damage”, but a classical literature of explaining both the physiology and pathology of human body functions.

Normally, the ailment or symptoms of the common flu would be limited at this stage of “Exterior Coldness”. Even without any treatment, the human body often could fight off the virus with an immune response and fully recover. But when the effects of Exterior Coldness started to penetrate into the interior of the body, the first common organs to be affected will be the organs that have a short path to the outside. (Translator’s note: Topologically, trachea and lung are only a membrane distance away from the outside air.) Then the Exterior Coldness gets transformed into the next stages such as “Interior Coldness” (裡寒) and “Lung Coldness” (肺寒). (Translator’s note: Here “Lung” means the whole respiratory system, not only the lung organ.) Clinically, the patients start to show symptoms of the syndrome named after its herbal remedy “Xiao Qing Long Tang” (小青龍湯). At this stage, the patients have serious coughing and running nose. When the respiratory system is “affected by the coldness”, the body fluid function of the respiratory system gets affected. Just like when the cooling system of a car malfunctions, the engine would overheat. The circulation function of the lung becomes “Dry and Overheated” (燥热). This would lead to the next stage of “Heated Interior” (入裡化熱) and often be matched to its herbal remedy “Da Qing Long Tang” (大青龍湯). At this stage, it does not mean that the whole lung is “dry and heated”. In fact, many pneumonia patients exhibit “mixed coldness and heat” (寒熱夾雜) in the lung. For example, while the upper part of the lung is “dry and heated”, the lower part of the lung might suffer excessive mucus of a high density. Pleural effusion and hydronephrosis might start to develop quickly.

Such a complex situation was extensively discussed in Chapter 7 of the ancient literature “Synopsis of Prescriptions of the Golden Chamber” (金匱要略肺痿肺癰咳嗽上氣病脈證治第七篇). At this complex stage, the illness development varies significantly among patients of different preconditions and other variants. It is no longer the situation that a simple herbal remedy can be applied to all the situations. The TCM theory illustrates various treatments by those herbal remedies such as “She Gan Ma Hung Tang” (射干麻黃湯), “Ting Li Da Zao Xie Fei Tang” (葶藶大棗瀉肺湯), ”Ze Qi Tang” (澤漆湯), “Xiao Qing Long Jia Shi Gao Tang” (小青龍加石膏湯), and others. It doesn’t mean that one of the herbal remedies should be selected to treat a patient directly. Instead, the TCM Theory used these herbal remedies to teach its practitioners how to “think” and create a proper herbal remedy based on the conditions of a specific patient.

For example, the Coronavirus has quite a puzzling situation that many Western medicine doctors haven’t yet fully understood. Some severely affected patients exhibited fibrosis of the lung like the SARS phenomenon. Other severely affected patients did not have SARS-like lung fibrosis but had massive liquid cumulated in the lung, which even “drown” some patients to death. From the TCM point of view, it is not strange at all. Fibrosis of the lung is the typical following stage of Heated Interior matching to “Da Qing Long Tang” (大青龍湯). It was named as “Lung Atrophy” (肺痿) in the TCM theory. And the situation that one suffers from massive dense liquid accumulation is matched to symptoms of severe development after the stages matched to “She Gan Ma Hung Tang”( 射干麻黃湯) , “Ting Li Da Zao Xie Fei Tang” (葶藶大棗瀉肺湯), and others as discussed earlier. The TCM theory called it “Lung Abscess” (肺癰). In the TCM theory, Lung Atrophy and Lung Abscess are two progression paths of this virus depending on which path develops faster or even simultaneously. From the past and current reports, SARS virus tilts toward the path of Lung Atrophy, while the Coronavirus tilts a little more toward Lung Abscess.

The above explained the progression of flu and other epidemic virus infections. Now you might understand how different TCM doctors had different views or treatment methods, but all of the treatments had some partially positive effects. If a TCM doctor’s diagnosis at one particular moment was slight hotness of the lung, some mild herbs to “clean up the heat” (清熱解毒輕劑), often used by the “Southern School” doctrine (溫病派), might relieve the patient’s symptoms. But if a TCM doctor’s diagnosis at a different point of the progression was massive mucus accumulation, heavy dosage of strong herbs, often used by the “Northern or Classic School” doctrine (經方派) might be needed to treat Lung Abscess (肺癰). That is why we saw some reports that the “Pneumonia Formula One” (肺炎一號) used in Guangzhou city, which was based on mild herbs to reducing the “heat”, had some positive effects in Guangzhou but not so effective in Shanghai. In Shanghai, many TCM doctors had to switch to stronger herbal ingredient often found in “Da Qing Long Tang” (大青龍湯) and “She Gan Ma Hung Tang”( 射干麻黃湯) as discussed earlier. This was due to different weather patterns and different patients, i.e. different progression paths described in the previous paragraphs. In other words, from the specific moment of the doctor’s diagnosis, both views were correct. But neither of them grasped the progression timeline of this severe illness.

Another point raised earlier was why did some patients fully recover while others did not? According to the information given by the doctors on the front line, there were so-called “Western medicine and TCM combined treatments” in which Western medicine drugs were continuously given to the patients and TCM herbs were used as supplements. When adding TCM herbs had a positive effect and made a speedier recovery, it was all goodness. But when adding TCM herbs did not have positive results, then what? According to the doctors on the front line, the medical team did not really think through the stages of disease progression as discussed earlier and switch to different TCM remedies, but only increased the dosage of Western medicine drugs such as Interferon (干擾素), Chloroquine phosphate (磷酸氯喹) used to treat malaria (抗瘧疾藥物), Arbidol (阿比多爾) used to treat influenza (抗流感藥物), and others. Heavy dosages of such drugs had severe side effects and sequelae. In those “combined” treatments, the medical teams didn’t have enough TCM expertise to make sound decisions on herbal remedies. Instead, they simply used TCM herbs as “extra help”.

How about treatments primarily with TCM remedies? The chief Western medicine expert who leads the fight against the Coronavirus, Dr. Nanshan Zhong, admitted under political pressure that TCM was useful against light or even medium threat situations of Coronavirus but insisted that TCM could not cure severe cases. His statement was based on his belief that there is no ingredient in TCM herbs that could kill Coronavirus. I am sorry to say that Dr. Zhong is incorrect in this aspect. With solid patient cases as proof, TCM can actually cure severe cases of Coronavirus infection and other flu-related infections. When it did not, it is the particular TCM doctors who had not mastered the whole theory and methodology of TCM. But one thing that Dr. Zhong said correctly was that no ingredient in TCM herbs can “kill” the virus. However, the TCM treatment isn’t based on the ability to kill the virus. (Translator’s note: Western medicine drugs could not kill the virus either.) Many people still have the level of limited understanding that TCM can only improve the immunization ability or some herbs such as the root of Isatis tinctoria (板藍根) has some natural antibiotic chemicals. Such understanding is unfortunately poor and very limited. Although modern medical science still could not fully comprehend TCM theory and its clinical outcome, against Coronavirus, the better explanation is that TCM remedies can “improve the internal environment of the human body”. (Translator’s note: So that the patient would not fall into the adverse conditions that the organs fail to function.) In plain words, when the virus causes more mucus, TCM remedies reduce the mucus. When the virus causes fibrosis, TCM remedies reduce the “heat level” of the lung. TCM remedies tend to push the body and organs back to the original healthy states. Once the environment is unfriendly for the virus to keep replicating, the patients will have higher chances to eradicate the virus by themselves and recover. One can probably say that this explanation and method is similar to the idea of using Western medicine Interferon but without severe side effects. That is, TCM can cure not because it has the ability to “kill” virus by some ingredients but to help to restore patients’ “internal environment” to healthier conditions that prevent the virus from replicating quickly. (Translator’s note: If one buys the same argument made by Dr. Zhong that a medication needs to have ingredients to kill the Coronavirus, then all the medications used today would not qualify. Then do we give up? In fact, why TCM was not selected to treat severe cases was because those stronger and less commonly used herbs were not applied properly or the TCM doctors at hand had less confidence for doing so. )

Now, we can go back to discuss how clinically TCM can treat and cure Coronavirus patients. For light to mild cases, most of the different TCM treatment methodologies could help. For medium to severe cases, as I discussed in my previous essay, we need to utilize the strength of certain herbs:

- Sheng Shi Gao (Gypsum, 生石膏): To reduce heat inside the lung (清肺熱) and enhance the liquid circulation in the respiratory system (加強肺津液運作)

- She Gan (Belamcanda chinensis, 射干)、Zi Wan (Aster tataricus, 紫菀) 、Kuan Dong Hua (Tussilago farfara flower, 款冬花)、Sheng Ban Xia (Pinellia ternate, 生半夏)、Ting Li (Sisymbrium indicum, 葶藶)、Da Ji (Euphorbia pekinensis Rupr., 大戟), etc.: To reduce accumulation of excessive mucus and wasteful fluids inside the respiratory system (去肺下方濃稠痰飲、肺積水、胸腔積液等)

- Ma Huang (Ephedra sinica Stapf., 麻黃), etc.: To enhance the lung function (宣肺、發陽)

- Mai Men Dong (Ophiopogon japonicas, 麥門冬)、Xing Ren (Prunus armeniaca, 杏仁): To moisturize the lung (潤肺)

That is, we need to combine the theory and targeted responses of the various herbal remedies such as “Da Qing Long Tang” (大青龍湯), “She Gan Ma Hung Tang” (射干麻黃湯) , “Ting Li Da Zao Xie Fei Tang” (葶藶大棗瀉肺湯), ”Ze Qi Tang” (澤漆湯)“, etc. as discussed earlier, and properly adjust the dosages and ratios of ingredients to fit the requirements of individual patients based on their conditions. In addition, if the patients have other ailments, those conditions need to be taken into account also, such as:

- For “Coldness and Wetness of the Middle and Lower Abdomen“ (中下焦寒濕) or “Deficient Kidney Function” (腎陽不足): Add Bao Fu Zi (processed Aconitum carmichaelii Debx root, 炮附子)、Xi Xin (Asarum sieboldii, 細辛), etc.

- When the liver function is weak or damaged by heavy dosages of Western medicine drugs such as interferon: Add Chai Hu (Bupleuri Radix, 柴胡)、Huang Qin (Scutellaria baicalnsis Geprgi root, 黃芩), etc.

There is no question that it is very challenging to fight off the Coronavirus. The clinical treatments will seriously test TCM doctors’ thorough understanding of TCM and their ability and courage to call the right shots under a great amount of pressure. On the other hand, it is also a good time to prove that TCM can be effectively used to fight various viruses in a superb and speedy fashion with little sequelae and at a much lower cost.

For fighting such a new and aggressive virus epidemic, there is no single TCM herbal formula that can treat all situations. One must have deep knowledge of the stages of the disease, along with close examinations on patients’ preconditions, so one can use the most effective prescription to intercept and turn the symptoms around. On the other hand, many provinces and cities in China provided TCM guidelines on Coronavirus treatments and pre-fixed herbal formulas to address people’s demands on a herbal remedy for “common usage”. Among them, I found the current recommendation from the Chinese National TCM Administration the most appropriate for a good percentage of Coronavirus patients. The herbal remedy was recently named as “Qing Fei Pai Du Tang” (清肺排毒湯), which could probably be translated to “clean up the lung and get rid of the toxic”. In line with the discussion above, this specific herbal formula includes Ma Huang (Ephedra sinica Stapf., 麻黃), Zhi Gan Cao (processed Glycyrrhiza uralensis Fisch., 炙甘草)、Xing Ren (Prunus armeniaca, 杏仁)、Sheng Shi Gao (Gypsum, 生石膏)、Gui Zhi (Ramulus Cinnamom, 桂枝)、Ze Xie (Alisma orientalis, 澤瀉)、Zhu Ling (Polyporus umbellatus, 豬苓)、Bai Zhu (Atractylodes macrocephala Koidz., 白朮)、Fu Ling (Poria, 茯苓)、Chai Hu (Bupleuri Radix, 柴胡)、Huang Qin (Scutellaria baicalnsis Geprgi root, 黃芩)、Jiang Ban Xia (Pinellia ternate, 薑半夏)、Sheng Jiang (Ginger, 生薑)、Zi Wan (Aster tataricus, 紫菀)、Kuan Dong Hua (Tussilago farfara flower, 款冬花)、She Gan (Belamcanda chinensis, 射干)、Xi Xin (Asarum sieboldii, 細辛)、Shan Yao (Dioscorea oppositifolia, 山药)、Zhi Shi (Citrus aurantium, 枳實)、Chen Pi (Citrus reticulata Blanco, 陳皮)、and Huo Xiang (Pogostemon cabin, 藿香). Since such an herbal remedy was designed for “common usage”, it has to consider all degrees of disease severity. Therefore, the dosages can’t be too heavy, as the majority of the patient cases are light to mild. As the result, “Da Qing Long Tang” (大青龍湯) discussed earlier became a lighter herbal formula named as “Ma Xing Gan Shi Tang” (麻杏甘石湯). The stronger herbal ingredients such as Ting Li (Sisymbrium indicum, 葶藶) and Da Ji (Euphorbia pekinensis Rupr., 大戟) to treat pleural effusion and hydronephrosis are not included. Hence, for severe cases, the herbal remedy from the Chinese National TCM Administration needs to be enhanced with additional ingredients and larger dosages.

In summary, as long as the TCM doctors have sufficient knowledge and clinical experience, by applying the proper methodology, TCM alone is capable of dealing with severe Coronavirus infections. (Translator’s note: There is much to do to develop a comprehensive diagnostic and treatment methodology which can help many TCM doctors to pinpoint the patient’s condition and stages of the infection to make the proper decision, especially when fully qualified TCM doctors are of short supply.) At this moment, there is no “special drug” in Western medicine to cure Coronavirus, but to resort to cortisone, antibiotics, interferon, anti-malaria, anti-flu drugs to maintain the lives of patients and passively wait and hope that the patients’ bodies can find their own way to turn the situation around. Even then, the Western medicine drugs mentioned above all potentially have significant side effects and sequelae. Patients with severe cases might be able to get out of the deathbed but most likely live with some permanent damages to the body. Dr. Zhong, China’s chief Western medicine expert on the Coronavirus epidemic, also warned that the current path of developing the “special drug” would most likely lead to severe sequelae to the patients. Given that is the case, why don’t we put much more effort to fully develop the TCM treatment of viral infection, not just for Coronavirus but also for future viruses which will bound to happen in the future?

(Translator’s note: As China is getting good control of the virus spread and gradually recovers from this epidemic, the knowledge learned will be invaluable to the rest of the world. Europe and the United States are on the exponential rise of new cases as of the writing on 3/14/2020. Various models predict that in the US alone Coronavirus infections can reach millions, as discussed in the Opinion Column of New York Times, “How Much Worse the Coronavirus Could Get, in Charts” by Nicholas Kristof and Stuart A. Thompson, March 13, 2020. China should continue to put efforts to develop TCM diagnostic and treatment methodology so that millions of people in the rest of the world can be helped and saved. TCM is not just for science, it is for humanity.)

（http://andylee.pro/wp/?p=7729）
#當張仲景遇上史丹佛

"橫尾先生你傾向於在你的遊戲中有個悲傷的結局（除了《尼爾 自動人形》），這是為什麼呢？

橫尾：我想啊，玩家在遊戲中的旅程中殺了那麼多的敵人，但自己卻迎來了一個Happy Ending，這很奇怪，所以我之前遊戲的主角都有著不幸的結局，我覺得對他們來說有個Happy Ending是不對的。

不過對《尼爾 自動人形》來說，對2B和9S來說，從被給予生命，他們殺了很多人，但也被自己殺了很多，很多次，有著無數次的輪迴。我認為這已經把他們殺死敵人的罪給贖了，幸福結局對他們兩個來說更合適一些。"

【尼爾：自動人形】是好遊戲，2B很可愛～

Talking To Yoko Taro, PlatinumGames' Takahisa Taura, And Composer Keiichi Okabe About Life, Death, And Opportunity

This interview with《Nier: Automata》director Yoko Taro and PlatinumGames' designer Takahisa Taura was first conducted in March of this year. Square Enix then offered gameinformer another chance to talk with Taro again, this time with Keiichi Okabe to speak more about the game's creation, music, and design philosophies and we are taking this opportunity to combine both until-now unpublished interviews together.

At the start of the first interview, Taro Yoko, whose pen name is appropriately Yoko Taro, was surprisingly quiet. He took a gulp from a bottle of Diet Pepsi and looked me straight in the eye to say something. I myself looked to the translator, who laughed at whatever Yoko said. She began "Yoko-san wants you to write about how expensive the food and drinks are here, if you can. He says it's way too much."

[The following interview contains some spoilers for Nier: Automata, including the game's final ending.]

With Nier: Automata, you guys won a Game Developer Conference award. How do you feel about that?

Yoko: We heard it was a user's choice award where the players themselves select the winners, so I'm just really happy that the players have selected our game for winning the award.

How did PlatinumGames and Yoko-san first meet on Nier? Why did you decide on that project versus something like another Drakengard or a new IP as a whole?

Taura: I loved the previous Nier title, I was actually went to Square Enix saying "Please let us create a Nier sequel, because you haven't done anything with it for a long time." At the same time, there was coincidentally Saito-san, the producer for Nier: Automata, talking with Yoko-san that they wanted to do something together. It just so happened that it was the right time, right place and we met for the first time when we started this project.

When you started working on the Automata, did you know what it was going to be? Did you have an idea in your head of what a Nier sequel would look like after the first game?

Yoko: Not at all, I had no ideas for a sequel in mind. When I first heard that we might do a collaboration with PlatinumGames, the image I had of them is that they only create Sci-Fi action games. When I thought of that, I thought of what part of the Nier storyline might fit in with that Sci-Fi action gaming sequence, I selected the themes for Automata because I felt it just fits in with the PlatinumGames style.

PlatinumGames has a reputation for fast, often-challenging action games, but Nier: Automata is a lot easier. Was that intentional to keep it closer to the first Nier or perhaps a consequence of trying to make PlatinumGames action more mainstream?

Taura: That's actually exactly the reason why. Saito-san from Square Enix told us when the project started that, since the original Nier has a lot of female fans and a lot of non-action gamer fans, to make the game as fun and accessible as possible to people who aren't accustomed to playing difficult action games. We always thought of making the game into something that's fun to play for newcomers to the action game field, but also to the more experienced players as well.

One of the usual tropes of PlatinumGames is that, as the game goes on, it tends to escalate more and more to an explosive finale. Nier: Automata kind of messes with that formula a little bit by Ending A being a little bit more subdued and low-key and then goes up again and again until it finishes with endings D and E. Is that something you had to work with Yoko-san about, where the escalation and pacing would best fit the gameplay?

Taura: In terms of like a climax or increasing the difficulty level toward the end, it's not that different from our other titles, or at least we didn't feel like it was that different. The one major difference was that this was the first game that I've at least worked that had the leveling up element in it. So as long as you level up your character, the boss would be easier to defeat, but if you don't, then some of the enemies toward the end of the game would be very difficult. For me, the balancing between the difficulty level of stages and bosses versus the levels the player might be was the difficult part in creating this game.

One thing that we really had it easy with in this game is that Yoko-san's scenario and Okabe-san's music, once it's mixed into the battle, makes a really menial and indifferent battle sequence suddenly becomes this dramatic and grandiose battle with everything at stake, so I felt like that really helped elevate our battle sequences as well. We did have an easy time thanks to that!

With Automata, you started appearing at press conferences and as part of the marketing of the game, whereas previously you never did that. When you appear in public, you have been wearing a mask of Emil from the first Nier title. Why Emil specifically?

Yoko: Hmm. One of the answers I can give is that, and I do have a little more that I want to elaborate on, is that for one Emil in the previous title is just a strong character on its own, so it's more like an iconic image or character for Nier as a series. Another part of the answer is that Emil actually holds a great secret of the part of the Nier world and it's not all revealed with the games I've created so far. I'm not sure if I'll have an opportunity to disclose that secret, but if I do, I might one day create a game that delves more into why it's Emil and why I continue to wear Emil's mask.

I don't know if either of you can speak to this, but the trailers for Nier: Automata were a little misleading. They showed A2, who you play as late in the game, but with short hair, so she looked like 2B. Was that something you decided, to show those scenes but not make it clear who it was?

Yoko: There were trailers like that?

There was one specifically showing A2 fighting Hegel like that.

Yoko: Ahh, yeah. There's no reason! We weren't trying to hide A2 or mislead anyone, it just happened to work out that way.

Taura: We made so many trailers at some point we kind of didn't care what we showed.

Oh, wow, that's going to shock a lot of fans in the Nier community. People really believed in the theory that you were hiding A2 in plain sight the marketing.

Yoko: Haha, but it might not be the correct answer. Like Taura-san said, we made so many trailers that we can't remember them all, so I'm definitely happy to take the credit without remembering why.

Taura: Yeah, let's say we intentionally did that. For the fans. It might be true.

Yoko: But I can say, in one of the trailers is A2 fighting one of the Engels, one of the big robots. She actually has long hair in the trailer, but in the actual game, it's after she cut her, so she would have had shorter hair. That one was actually intentional, because we did not reveal before the game that A2 would cut her hair, so we actually made a scene specifically with long-haired A2 to take that trailer. So that's that shot was kind of a lie.

In the Automata DLC, the CEO of Square Enix Yosuke Matsuda, as well as PlatinumGames boss Kenichi Sato, are boss fights. Where did that idea come from and how did you get them to approve it? How did they react when you asked them?

Yoko: Haha, oh yeah.

Taura: The development team went to Square Enix and said "Please let us use him in our game!" Their reaction was initially saying "Uhm, are you sure you want to?"

We were thinking for a while of what we could do with the DLC, because we didn't have a lot of time to develop it, so we wanted to do something fun with it. When we were thinking about it, we saw that Final Fantasy XV used a character model of president Matsuda in one of their marketing assets. When Yoko-san saw that, he reached out and asked if maybe we could use that in the game at Platinum. We said that, if we get the character models, we could definitely use them for something in the game. We reached out to Square Enix and they gave us the model and we were able to use that character model for a boss fight.

If it was just that you were able to fight the CEO of Square Enix, then it would have just been the same as what Final Fantasy XV did, so we had to think of ways to spice that up even more. So we had PlatinumGames' CEO Sato-san appear in the fight as well. We also included background music that arranged their voices, we included their voices in the music, just to add a little bit more and beat out Final Fantasy XV. That BGM track is Matsuda-san and Sato-san's debut single. We didn't even get permission from them, so it's an unofficial debut single, and those are much rarer.

Speaking of crossovers, did you know that Nier fans have been trying get Katsuhiro Harada of Bandai Namco to put 2B in Tekken? Is that something you guys would want to do? [Note: This interview was conducted before 2B was announced as a Soulcalibur guest character.]

Yoko: For us, if we were asked, we would gladly say yes to anything for money. We're open to any kind of opportunities for anything, ever. Even if it's Candy Crush, if they want to use 2B, we will say yes, please go ahead and use her.

Actually, speaking of doing anything for money, you've never created a direct story sequel before, they've all been loosely tied together and many years apart. Saito-san has already said there will be another Nier game, if the characters are popular enough, would you create a direct sequel to Automata or would you change the characters and location again?

Yoko: I haven't thought about it once! Taura-san, where would you want to create a new game?

Taura: Actually, when I brought my concept document to Square Enix about a Nier sequel, I wanted to write a story about that prologue portion in the first Nier game. You know the beginning of the game, where you're kind of in Tokyo, in an area that's more modern? I kind of want to delve into that storyline a little bit more. So if I'm allowed to create a new Nier title, that's what I want to create. But that's just me speaking as a fan of the series, so I don't think that will actually happen officially.

Yoko: When I actually heard about that idea from Taura-san when we first started this project, I felt that it would be very difficult to make a modern recreation of Tokyo because it's the city that we constantly see every day. You just notice differences in the lies that we put in there, so I felt it would be very difficult to do to recreate a city that we know and see so much. But now that I know that PlatinumGames is such a good studio that they most likely will have that power and talent to be able to create that kind of video game world, I think that might be an option. Whether or not we'll do that is a different question, but it is a viable option.

One of the things you said before the release of Drakengard 3 was that you wanted to call it Drakengard 4 and just let people figure out what the theoretical Drakengard 3 was supposed to be. That's similar to what you did with Automata where the game takes place 10,000 years after Nier and people who played the first game were more confused than new players. Was that an intentional idea or something you've wanted to do for a while?

Yoko: It's not that I brought over that idea to Nier: Automata, the greatest reasoning why I did this is because I wanted players who haven't played the original title to enjoy Nier: Automata so you can enjoy the game without knowing anything about the previous game. That's the biggest reason why we took a storyline that's so far in the future that it really didn't have anything to do with the previous title.

A common through-line for Yoko-san's games is flowers: the lunar tear in the Nier series, the flower in Zero's eye in Drakengard 3, is that symbolizing anything in your games or is it just visual imagery you like?

Yoko: Well, I do like flowers in general, but yes, there is a greater meaning to it that I have with these flowers. It's the same as Emil like I talked about earlier, I just haven't revealed it anywhere. There is a meaning, which is why they keep on coming back in my games, but I haven't revealed it anywhere yet.

With the last Nier game, you had said that you built the game on the concept of people being okay with murdering people who are different. With Nier: Automata, the games actually became more fun to play and control and touch, do you think there's a danger in giving people that sense of ease in killing enemies in the narrative?

Yoko: In the previous title, I actually feel like I overdid that a bit. I did want to portray that enemies have a reason to live and a reason to fight on their own as well, but I feel like I forced that idea that I had in my mind a little bit too much on the players. So for Nier: Automata, I did not want to focus on it, I didn't want to impose my feelings and thoughts. I actually feel that it's fine if some people feel it's fun to kill in our games. If that's all that they feel from the game, then it's fine, because its their freedom to feel what they want from the game. To answer your question, I think that it's fine to have that happen.

Taura: I actually have the same answer, too. I feel like if it's fun to fight, that's great as a game designer. But if you feel bad to kill these cute little robots, that's fine with me as well. I feel like different people will have different reactions to the game and they will feel differently when they play the game, so I'm actually happy to create a game that creates those kind of differences within the players as well.

Yoko: That's a really good question for us, because if players felt that it was way too fun to kill these enemies that it started making them feel guilty, that's something we didn't really aim to do. Just as we mentioned earlier, I'm really happy that players were able to take it on their own and experience it on their own, then we didn't just provide something for people to take it as-is on face value. I feel like it's great that the players are now taking the game and experiencing it on their own and trying to figure things out on their own.

There was a time after 2B was revealed that people were asking you about her design on Twitter and you answered that you just like sexy ladies. That quote has become pretty famous and attached to you and a lot of people are reading into it. Is that a thing you still believe, would you ever take the quote back, or would you have ever changed 2B's design?

Yoko: [laughs] Don't straight men like cute girls? Isn't that common knowledge? I didn't realize that was a quote.

A lot of people use you as an example as a developer that just says what is on their mind.

Yoko: Before we released the game, on Twitter, because so many people were sending me 2B fan art, I said that "Send me a zip file of all your erotic fan art!" When I tweeted that out, my number of Twitter followers jump from 20,000 to 60,000 just with that one Tweet. I actually think it's because I did something that's more of a taboo in the western world where I talked about sexuality or gender that openly on Twitter, but that's actually...so, I do know that what I said did not just creative positive buzz and there's some negative buzz around it as well, but I feel like it kind of has to do with the Japanese culture where we're not too strict about gender and sexuality and being more open about talking about those things.

I think it's the same thing as reading manga as an adult, it's a little bit different when you think about it because in Japan that's more common, it's not considered something weird or something outlandish. With that kind of feedback that I get from fans, I just feel like it's the difference in culture between Japan and the rest of the world.

That is something you tend to tackle fairly often. Drakengard 3 was partly about sex and sexuality treated casually within the game's universe, is that something you feel doesn't translate across all regions?

Yoko: I actually don't think [translating across regions] has a lot to do with sexuality. I don't think it would have sold more copies of Drakengard 3 if I took away aspects of sexuality or added more in there. I feel that Nier: Automata sold well because we worked with PlatinumGames, so I don't think that has anything to do with a sexual nature.

For the original Nier, there was a lot of information on the periphery of the game like books with background information and short stories that answer questions raised in the game. Automata even had a stage play predating the game. Do you think it's harder for western fans to grasp the whole stories of these games when there's Japanese-exclusive media about it expanding the lore?

Yoko: Of course we can't localize everything because we have limitations in budget, so it's really difficult to do all of that, but I actually think there really isn't a need to know everything, either. The meaning I have behind Emil's mask or the flowers you asked about, like I said it's not revealed in the game at all or anywhere else yet, but no one really needs to know that to enjoy the game or enjoy the world or enjoy the game. More than gaining knowledge, I want players to cherish the experience they have when playing the game. It's more about that instead of the knowledge they could have for every question. Of course the theatrical stage play was more of like a YoRHa spinoff, but you don't need to know that to enjoy the game. Every piece, like the books and the stage play, is made in a way so that you can enjoy it by yourself, so you don't need that extra knowledge to enjoy it.

It may add a little bit depth to the knowledge that you have, but you don't necessarily need to have it. I do understand the otaku mentality that you want to know everything, you want to have everything answered, you want to collect everything, but I don't see the value in knowing everything. For example, just in real life, you might not know everything about the politics that surrounds the world or even in your own country, and there's really no point in knowing everything that happens in the world. Maybe a lot things, but not everything, right? What's more important is how you interact with people around you, immediately around you, and I think that's the same with video games. You don't really need to know everything that happens in the world to enjoy it.

Of course I do respect the freedom that the players feel as well, so if you do get mad that we can't localize everything in America, or America never gets everything, that's also something to be respected and I do understand the frustrations surrounding that as well.

When Nier: Automata released, it did so in a three-month timeframe that several other big Japanese games came out in the U.S., like The Legend of Zelda: Breath of the Wild and Yakuza 0. A lot of people started heralding those games as a return of Japanese development in the west. What do you think about going from fairly niche games to what some people consider the tip of the spear of modern Japanese development?

Yoko: First and foremost, just to speak about having so many good titles in that timeframe, my thought was "Are you people trying to kill me with this?!" In Japan, Horizon came out first, then it was Nier, then Zelda, and I think in the west, it was Horizon, Zelda, then Nier in North America. So we're literally sandwiched between those two with a two-week window in between each and they were all very similar to us in the futuristic setting. Especially for Zelda, it was one of the titles we copied in the first place, so I really felt like they were trying to kill us at the time.

Personally, not even thinking about Nier: Automata during that time frame, I was running around excited about all the fun-looking games coming as a gamer myself.

Hideki Kamiya [PlatinumGames] has once said that Nier: Automata saved Platinum. Is that something you agree with and how has the relationship been between PlatinumGames and Square Enix?

Yoko: Speaking from my perspective, of course Taura-san will likely know more about it internally at PlatinumGames...Kamiya-san, he's very laid back on Twitter, but when you actually really talk to him, he's a very serious person and very sincere. I guess Nier: Automata did generate sales for them, because I received a direct letter of gratitude from him saying "Thank you very much for creating a great game." I don't even know if we saved them or not in that sense, but just receiving that kind of message from was just very heartwarming and I was just really happy that I was able to provide such a game for them.

Taura: You could make the headline of your article "Yoko Taro Saved PlatinumGames" and that's definitely true.

Yoko: It's a very true headline.

Why do both of you think that Nier: Automata was more successful than Yoko-san's previous games or most other PlatinumGames titles?

Taura: Mainly because PlatinumGames' sensibilities were much better than Yoko Taro's.

Yoko: I actually think it's the Square Enix brand, the name Square Enix gives a more reliable feeling to an otaku type of title. PlatinumGames' strong name being known for making really good action games and I think the combination of the two really helped. This time with Nier: Automata, we sold about 2.5 million copies and the previous title we sold around 500,000. For the last game, we weren't really in the red, but it wasn't exactly a success either. We have these passionate fans that really supported the time from announcement and the series as a whole. Of course for Automata, too, we had a very passionate fan base including the media and including yourself that gave impressions and articles that helped make the game into a success, so I'm just really grateful for the fans and media alike that really supported the title and were passionate about it.

[The remainder of this interview took place a few weeks later with Taro Yoko and Nier: Automata composer Keiichi Okabe. Okabe is also known for his work on both Nier titles, Drakengard 3, Tekken, and contributing some tracks to Super Smash Bros. Ultimate. Before we started recording, Yoko said it will be okay if I asked Okabe most of the questions and I remarked that I wouldn’t want to make him jealous. He paused for a moment and then said it doesn’t matter because he would get paid either way.]

You two have been working together for a long time, I was curious how much the music composition is tied in with the writing. One of the city themes in Nier: Automata uses similar composition to a track in Nier. Does that come from the writing or the musical identity of the series?

Okabe: Since Yoko-san is I feel the type of person that doesn't want to do the same thing over and over again, even if he did receive praise for what he did previously, I kept that in mind while I was composing music for Nier: Automata. I also wanted to have some kind of connection that you would feel as a player between the previous title and this one, so I used similar tones from previous titles or from the previous game. It might not be exactly the same, but I used some similar types of music lines from the previous title so that you might feel that kind of connection.

But we do have tracks that are arrangements of previous tracks from older titles, but that was mostly for fan service.

I kind of wanted to drill down a little bit this time and get to the core of your philosophy of why and how you make games. If you had to pick a reason to hold up and say "This is why I make video games," what would that be?

Yoko: I feel that video games, amongst all the different entertainment mediums, have the most freedom in what you can do as a creator. For example, in a film, if you are able to control movement, then that's no longer a film in my eyes. In video games, you could have film-like cutscenes and videos, you could have them going on forever as much as you would like as a creator. That kind of freedom to do that is what I really wanted to do and I feel like video games are what provide me that option, even if I never do it.

Is there any kind of message you use games for that you want to convey to your audience or anything you want them to hear from you? Or do you prefer to let them take whatever interpretation they get from your games?

Yoko: It's the latter. I would want our players to freely interpret what I've created just on their own, to grasp something for their own. I feel that's one of the interesting aspects of video games is that you are able to freely interpret what's being shown to you. I also feel like the players make the game whole by playing it. The action of playing the game I feel has meaning in itself and because of that I want the players to find something from the game, feel something from the game, for themselves.

Nier: Automata won a number of awards, Okabe-san you won best music at The Game Awards, Automata won the audience award at GDC. Is there any pressure to appeal a more mainstream audience with your next game?

Okabe: For a popular title that will be played by many, it doesn't really matter what kind of genre you put out musically. I will still be interested to compose music for those if possible. I would have to take a different approaches to those kind of mainline titles, whereas for Nier, I felt that the music can be more geared toward a core audience where only those who would understand the music would play it. But at the same time, once you understand, I want you to be deeply affected by it. That's what I aim for with Nier. If I am to work on a way more mainstream title next time, I will have to change that mindset I have as a composer, but that would be something I'd like to challenge myself more. To answer your question, yes, I'd like to try that, but I'd also do whatever kind of jobs I'm assigned to.

Yoko: For me, my games I actually think are really niche. How Nier: Automata was so successful was actually just a coincidence. To make a successful game is something that I can't really aim to do, so I think that I'll probably return to my small and dark corner, my niche corner, with my successive titles.

Who would you both consider your inspirations for writing and composing?

Okabe: For me, it's obviously more of a composer than a writer, but I don't really focus on one person. I tend to just try to get music here and there and have a wide net. I am greatly affected by people who I've listened to in my youth, like Japanese composer Ryuchi Sakamoto, Ennio Morricone who creates film music, and also pop music like Michael Jackson and Madonna. I am affected by those as well.

Yoko: I have received inspiration from a lot of things, but I think personally expressions in film or any like visual production is something I'm deeply affected by. For example, Neon Genesis Evangelion by Hideaki Anno, that was really a strong influence on me. Also, the drama series 24, the way that they incorporate speedy and complicated constructions of storylines was something that was very new at the time. Just throughout the timeline of visual production, I think there's a sudden burst of evolution, and I think that "that" moment in a title that does that just greatly affects me and becomes an inspiration for me. But I feel that can be said for the rest of the world.

Lately, anything that Christopher Nolan creates I think is very intriguing where he tries to include deep knowledge and thoughtfulness into what he creates. I'm very interested in this new wave of evolution.

Last year, with the release of Animal Crossing on mobile, you talked on social media about how it was your favorite game of the year because you created a narrative where the characters were all unwillingly imprisoned in the camp. Do you often create your own narratives for games?

Yoko: I do that for some games and I don't for others. Off and on, I guess. It's a lot easier to create my own storyline per se for a more primitive game. For example, in Zelda: Wind Waker, you start off with a grandma and your sister living on an island and it's really happy and joyful and there's really no reason for Link to get out of there and fight Ganondorf because you're already living happily. You don't need to get out of that happiness. As a gamer, I felt the kind of sadness to have to leave that happy island life.

In Dragon Quest [V], you have to choose who you want to wed, and I felt that I couldn't really get into liking either of the characters. I also couldn't find the point of having to decide who I want to marry, so I just at that instant I turned off the game and said "My journey ends here!" My mind narrated "The three of them went on the journey and lived happily ever after, the end." That was my ending for Dragon Quest V.

Around the release of Drakengard 3, you spoke about how it's not possible in this industry to make a six-minute game and sell it for $60, no matter how good those six minutes are. Is this something you still think?

Yoko: That analogy was given to explain that, no matter how much you try to make a game really good, there's a limit to what you can do. If you are to create a six-minute game, because you can't go through a lot of different stages, you would have to create one stage. Which means that you could really refine the quality of that one stage without having to put in a lot of money into it and a lot of manpower into it. Also, because it's only six minutes, you can't really have too many characters in it, so you could focus on one or two characters at max. By doing that, you could refine the quality of those two characters. But because you're time-limited, no matter how much you refine the quality of the world around you or the characters, if you're limited to six minutes there's just so much you could do that the game won't become good at all. That was an example for me to say that there's a limit to what you can do in video games.

Okabe-san, in the music for a lot of Yoko-san's game, you use constructed or uncommon languages, is there a specific reason for that?

Okabe: [laughs] Yeah, for one, because it is Nier: Automata, Replicant, and Gestalt, they all take place in a unique world, even though they're in the timeline of our current world, it's so much in the future that it should feel kind of foreign. That's one of the reasons why I went for language we can't understand, but another is that, in games in the past, game directors actually got mad at many occasions for including vocals into the soundtrack. They were saying that it would become too distracting from the gameplay and would distract the player. It was considered more of a taboo, so for Nier, I included vocals in there without a language you could understand more for the sound that you get from the words. It wasn't to convey any meaning of what was being said, but more for a sound impact.

Yoko-san, you tend to have very sad endings in your games, with the exception of Nier: Automata which is as happy an ending as you can get with most characters dying. Why do you tend to write toward more sad endings and do you feel like Automata's happy ending fit the game better?

Yoko: The reason why I created endings that end on a death is because, until now I was creating games where you would kill a lot of enemies, but I've always felt that it doesn't feel right when the protagonist has a happy after they've killed so many enemies during the course of their journey. That's why in Replicant and Gestalt, or my previous titles, the protagonist pretty much ended up dying because I didn't feel like it was right for them to have a happy ending. But for Nier: Automata, 2B and 9S, from the time that they were given life, they've been killing a lot of enemies, but they've also been killed by them many, many times, and regenerated many times. They've actually been killing each other, which you find out at the very end, many, many times as well. So I felt that kind of cleansed them of their sins for killing so many enemies, which made me feel that a happy ending was more fitting for those two.

Do you feel like that cycle of violence and death and the consequences of that are human nature?

Yoko: I think the reasons why we kill in video games do kind of shine light on what's kind of broken within humanity or humans in general. We want peace in the world, but we also enjoy killing others in video games, like shooting guns in video games. I think that's karma in a sense for humans, the way that video games grasp the true essence of humanity, whether or not that's what they were aiming to do.

Is there a series that you know, like Persona or Yakuza or anything like that, that either of you would want to work on?

Yoko: A series or anything?

It can be anything.

Yoko: Personally, it's not a Japanese title. I'd actually love to see how western titles are developed, because I have no insight into how they're made. There was a moment in time where I felt that it might be fun join a western development to see how things run. Of course there's the language barrier that would make it difficult for me to do that, but generally speaking I feel that western storytelling follows kind of a similar route for all the stories that western mediums create. I would feel it fascinating to find out why western games use certain flows and storyline arcs.

Okabe: I'm kind of a fanboy myself, so there is a part of me that wants to work on major titles like Dragon Quest. I feel that if I do work on those titles, the pressure of working such a known title would be just too big and because there is a part of me that really loves that series, I feel like I would try to skew my music in a way that would fit into that series instead of trying to create music that I think is good. I don't feel like I would be able to bring out the best quality in my music if I worked on those big titles, because of that pressure and because of the image I have of those titles in my mind. Currently, my want to work on those major titles and the part of me that's telling me I shouldn't do it are about equal.

Were either of you surprised by Nier: Automata's success?

Yoko: [in English] Oh yes.

Okabe: For me, I live in Tokyo and developer PlatinumGames live in Osaka, so we did have quite a distance in-between, like literal physical distance between us. From the moment that I created the music to when I was able to see it next, there was a big gap in time, so when I was able to my music in the game for the first time, the game was pretty close to finished, they were almost done with development. At that moment, I thought "Maybe this one might sell?" But at the same time, I didn't think it would become this big of a success, I always thought it might do better than the previous titles, but it was like a hunch that I didn't feel until this time in Yoko-san's titles. I did have some kind of a gut feeling that it might do well.

The last song of Automata, Weight of the World, had a chorus with the entire game's development staff at PlatinumGames and Square Enix singing along to encourage the player. Why did you decide on that for the final song of the game?

Okabe: I didn't remember this, I actually forgot about it for a while, but Yoko-san actually came to me telling me that he wanted a chorus at the end of the game pretty early on in the development process. I apparently made disgruntled face at him and did not remember why I even made that face or even that I made that face. After a while, I actually remember why I had such a reaction with the disgruntled face, because there's a couple of different types of choirs, but Yoko-san likes the more classical choir, so when he requested that he wanted a choir, I thought he wanted that classical type of choir at the last part of the game. At that moment, I thought "Well, that doesn't really fit in with the game plan, I don't really want to do that," which is why I had that expression on my face. After we talked about it, Yoko-san mentioned that wasn't really what he was going for, he said that because that last scene is all about all these different people helping you, he wanted everyone to sing, he wanted it to feel like everyone is singing there with you as you play.

When I thought about doing that, and I actually agreed that might be a good idea, because in Nier: Automata all the choir vocals that you hear in the game, it's actually recorded by a small group of singers, I just overlapped their voice so it sounds like a big choir. Because that last part of the game is more about you playing amongst a lot of people, I felt that taking that approach again of overlapping voices again would not really work. So I reached out to the dev teams because they were working on that part and I thought it would be a good idea to have them put themselves in the game as well. I also thought that they don't need to have a good voice, it's just to give that feeling that you're playing with all these developers.

Development teams from Square Enix, PlatinumGames, and also some composers from my company who didn't work on Nier: Automata are singing in it as well. There's also children of PlatinumGames developers and their family actually singing in it as well. That was the reasoning behind why we decided to do that at the end.

Has there ever been, in all your games you've made, an idea you had that you had to be talked out of?

Yoko: For the first Drakengard, I had an idea of [Japanese pop-star] Ayumi Hamasaki, like her character model, wearing all-silver spandex, like a giant version of her descending from the sky and you would fight against her by music. Everyone else on the staff shut it down. It does still leave that kind of music game essence kind of in there, but the part Ayumi Hamasaki comes out in silver spandex has been taken out.

Isn't that kind of similar to Drakengard 3's actual ending?

Yoko: Similar, but I actually wanted to go for something funny, or shockingly stupid. But no one would let me.

Source：
https://www.gameinformer.com/…/talking-to-yoko-taro-platinu…